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	<title>Comments on: Webs Being Weaved</title>
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	<description>If someone doesn&#039;t share your view, doesn&#039;t mean that they&#039;re wrong</description>
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		<title>By: lambo</title>
		<link>http://www.aviewfromthefence.com/2010/07/24/webs-being-weaved/comment-page-1/#comment-232</link>
		<dc:creator>lambo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 11:11:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aviewfromthefence.com/2010/07/24/webs-being-weaved/#comment-232</guid>
		<description>Arkle, Arkle, Arkle,

I have to admit you amaze me.  After being banned from posting in the Fence threads at Farpoint Forums, you still have this need to post anyway.  You also ignored my reply to you to your last post on this website informing you that you are banned here as well.

I did delete your post, but then I recovered it because I felt your post really illustrated my point.

First, a few comments about your post...

You are INCORRECT about Bush dropping the case:

&quot;The Bush Justice Department brought the first case against three members of the group, accusing them in a civil complaint of violating the Voter Rights Act. The Obama administration initially pursued the case, winning a default judgment in federal court in April 2009 when the Black Panther members did not appear in court. But then the administration moved to dismiss the charges the following month after getting one of the New Black Panther members to agree to not carry a “deadly weapon” near a polling place until 2012. The department boasted that justice had been served.

But Adams, the former administration lawyer, accused the Justice Department of not continuing the case for political and racial reasons.

Adams called the case “a slam dunk,” telling Fox News that “nobody thought there was any doubt that this was the clearest case of voter intimidation that I’ve seen since I’ve been practicing law.”

Before you scream Fox News or Conservative bias....  Here is a comment from a Democrat who is a poll watcher:

&quot;But Bartle Bull, who was a poll watcher in Philadelphia in 2008, doesn’t buy the Justice Department denials.

“I find it deeply offensive,” Bull said. “I know people who died over these issues, like Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr. If we can’t defend their legacy, it’s shameful to us and this administration.”

Bull is a prominent New York Democrat and longtime political adviser. He was Robert F. Kennedy’s New York campaign manager, went to the south in the 1960s to protect the voting rights of black voters and just came back from Afghanistan where he traveled with the troops.

He says the administration’s actions amount to protecting the New Black Panthers.

“If Americans can’t vote honestly, and the government doesn’t protect their right to vote, we don’t live in a democracy. Last year Obama complained when the government in Afghanistan did not run the election properly. What about Pennsylvania?” he said, claiming the president “violated his oath of office.”

NEXT POINT

You noted that Breitbart  was &quot;sitting on the video.&quot;   For how long?  20 years?  I don&#039;t think so.  I don&#039;t deny that he could have been the one to edit, but we still don&#039;t know how much of the actual speech he received.  This also doesn&#039;t let the Administration off the hook for sacking Sherrod so fast without giving her a chance to explain herself.

NEXT POINT

You are falling into the same trap as many on the left does in trying to  explain the Tea Party.  Mark Williams is NOT a prominent member of the Tea Party.  He was a leader in the Tea Party Express.   There is a big difference if you actually take the time and research the Tea Party.

I will give you the quick 101.  Back in 1980, Reagan was elected president.  He received support from all three wings of the Republican Party: the Social Conservatives, Neo-Cons and the Libertarian wings.  (I use the word &quot;Libertarian&quot; loosely here...  Libertarian Leaning might be a better term.)

Also during the 1980 election, a marriage between the Social Conservatives and Neo-Cons happened.  They gradually over time started forcing the Libertarian wing out.

This union was disrupted in 2008.  Ron Paul&#039;s campaign woke up the Libertarian wing of the Republican Party.  I will concede they are not a majority, but they started to get better organized.   

The Tea Party&#039;s greatest strength is also it&#039;s biggest weakness.  They are very localized group with many factions.  The Tea Party Express was an attempt by the establishment Republicans (Mostly Social Conservatives and Neo-Cons) to gain control of the movement.  However, the other camp of the Tea Party is the more Libertarian leaning supporters of Ron Paul.

There is a faction that follows Sarah Palin and a faction that follows Ron Paul.  These factions actually disagree on many things, but they do agree that the country needs to take a more Fiscal Conservative approach than the big government spending that happened both under Bush and now Obama.

Interesting stat...  1 out of 5 Tea Party members actually voted for Obama.  There is projection that Tea Party Members have only been going after Democrats.  This isn&#039;t true.  They have also went after Republicans as well..     I know they booed off stage Gov. Rick Perry, Senator Cornyn and Senator Graham.  

There mood is also being reflected in Democratic Primaries...     If you are perceived as an &quot;establishment&quot; candidate then you are in a rough go during this election.  

NEXT POINT

Since this post about taking things in context, lets take another point you made.  You said, &quot;like he never listens to Republican ideas; a flat out lie, just look at how many Rs there are next to amendments in the Health Care bill&quot;

Well, here is what Politifact had to say on the subject--

FIRST they quoted Don Stewart:

&quot;Don Stewart, a spokesman for Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell, said 132 of the 159 were for &quot;technical amendments&quot; and that it was a misnomer to call them proof of bipartisanship.

None of the Republicans&#039; priorities have gotten any traction, he said: Tort reform, equalizing the tax code, reducing the proposed cuts to Medicare spending, and scrapping the proposed &quot;public option.&quot;

In fact, he said, only one big-picture Republican issue seems to have gotten the attention of the Democratic majority: creating incentives for wellness, such as cutting insurance costs for people who exercise or don&#039;t smoke. &quot;

SECOND, Politifact&#039;s conclusion:

&quot;When Obama said the health plan incorporated ideas from Democrats and Republicans, we think he grossly overstated the bipartisanship of the process to date. Both sides claim the other party is to blame for that, an issue that we will not wade into here. However, we note that none of the plans that have graduated from congressional committees have received a single Republican vote. Yes, Congress adopted dozens of the amendments proposed by Republicans, but we couldn&#039;t find any that dramatically altered the plan. Still, to the extent there were at least some, we give Obama&#039;s statement a Barely True. &quot;

NEXT POINT

Arkle,

I really do appreciate your passion.  I do feel that more Americans need to get passionate.  However, I do feel you have let your blind you.  I&#039;m sure that the when the Neo-Cons drank the Bush Kool-Aid that drove you nuts.  (It did me as well)

However in doing so, you have become what you most despised.  Someone who is so rigid in their views that they can&#039;t see the whole picture.  You are a Neo-Lib.  I will admit there is a lot to bash within the right wing, but also within the left wing.  However, you don&#039;t see that.

I will give you one piece of advice which I doubt you will follow.   Study the history of banking...   

FINALLY,

With support of the owner of Farpoint Forums, I banned you from posting in the Fence Threads there.  I told you in my last comment to you that you were banned from here as well.  Going on record...   More comments from you here will be deleted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arkle, Arkle, Arkle,</p>
<p>I have to admit you amaze me.  After being banned from posting in the Fence threads at Farpoint Forums, you still have this need to post anyway.  You also ignored my reply to you to your last post on this website informing you that you are banned here as well.</p>
<p>I did delete your post, but then I recovered it because I felt your post really illustrated my point.</p>
<p>First, a few comments about your post&#8230;</p>
<p>You are INCORRECT about Bush dropping the case:</p>
<p>&#8220;The Bush Justice Department brought the first case against three members of the group, accusing them in a civil complaint of violating the Voter Rights Act. The Obama administration initially pursued the case, winning a default judgment in federal court in April 2009 when the Black Panther members did not appear in court. But then the administration moved to dismiss the charges the following month after getting one of the New Black Panther members to agree to not carry a “deadly weapon” near a polling place until 2012. The department boasted that justice had been served.</p>
<p>But Adams, the former administration lawyer, accused the Justice Department of not continuing the case for political and racial reasons.</p>
<p>Adams called the case “a slam dunk,” telling Fox News that “nobody thought there was any doubt that this was the clearest case of voter intimidation that I’ve seen since I’ve been practicing law.”</p>
<p>Before you scream Fox News or Conservative bias&#8230;.  Here is a comment from a Democrat who is a poll watcher:</p>
<p>&#8220;But Bartle Bull, who was a poll watcher in Philadelphia in 2008, doesn’t buy the Justice Department denials.</p>
<p>“I find it deeply offensive,” Bull said. “I know people who died over these issues, like Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr. If we can’t defend their legacy, it’s shameful to us and this administration.”</p>
<p>Bull is a prominent New York Democrat and longtime political adviser. He was Robert F. Kennedy’s New York campaign manager, went to the south in the 1960s to protect the voting rights of black voters and just came back from Afghanistan where he traveled with the troops.</p>
<p>He says the administration’s actions amount to protecting the New Black Panthers.</p>
<p>“If Americans can’t vote honestly, and the government doesn’t protect their right to vote, we don’t live in a democracy. Last year Obama complained when the government in Afghanistan did not run the election properly. What about Pennsylvania?” he said, claiming the president “violated his oath of office.”</p>
<p>NEXT POINT</p>
<p>You noted that Breitbart  was &#8220;sitting on the video.&#8221;   For how long?  20 years?  I don&#8217;t think so.  I don&#8217;t deny that he could have been the one to edit, but we still don&#8217;t know how much of the actual speech he received.  This also doesn&#8217;t let the Administration off the hook for sacking Sherrod so fast without giving her a chance to explain herself.</p>
<p>NEXT POINT</p>
<p>You are falling into the same trap as many on the left does in trying to  explain the Tea Party.  Mark Williams is NOT a prominent member of the Tea Party.  He was a leader in the Tea Party Express.   There is a big difference if you actually take the time and research the Tea Party.</p>
<p>I will give you the quick 101.  Back in 1980, Reagan was elected president.  He received support from all three wings of the Republican Party: the Social Conservatives, Neo-Cons and the Libertarian wings.  (I use the word &#8220;Libertarian&#8221; loosely here&#8230;  Libertarian Leaning might be a better term.)</p>
<p>Also during the 1980 election, a marriage between the Social Conservatives and Neo-Cons happened.  They gradually over time started forcing the Libertarian wing out.</p>
<p>This union was disrupted in 2008.  Ron Paul&#8217;s campaign woke up the Libertarian wing of the Republican Party.  I will concede they are not a majority, but they started to get better organized.   </p>
<p>The Tea Party&#8217;s greatest strength is also it&#8217;s biggest weakness.  They are very localized group with many factions.  The Tea Party Express was an attempt by the establishment Republicans (Mostly Social Conservatives and Neo-Cons) to gain control of the movement.  However, the other camp of the Tea Party is the more Libertarian leaning supporters of Ron Paul.</p>
<p>There is a faction that follows Sarah Palin and a faction that follows Ron Paul.  These factions actually disagree on many things, but they do agree that the country needs to take a more Fiscal Conservative approach than the big government spending that happened both under Bush and now Obama.</p>
<p>Interesting stat&#8230;  1 out of 5 Tea Party members actually voted for Obama.  There is projection that Tea Party Members have only been going after Democrats.  This isn&#8217;t true.  They have also went after Republicans as well..     I know they booed off stage Gov. Rick Perry, Senator Cornyn and Senator Graham.  </p>
<p>There mood is also being reflected in Democratic Primaries&#8230;     If you are perceived as an &#8220;establishment&#8221; candidate then you are in a rough go during this election.  </p>
<p>NEXT POINT</p>
<p>Since this post about taking things in context, lets take another point you made.  You said, &#8220;like he never listens to Republican ideas; a flat out lie, just look at how many Rs there are next to amendments in the Health Care bill&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, here is what Politifact had to say on the subject&#8211;</p>
<p>FIRST they quoted Don Stewart:</p>
<p>&#8220;Don Stewart, a spokesman for Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell, said 132 of the 159 were for &#8220;technical amendments&#8221; and that it was a misnomer to call them proof of bipartisanship.</p>
<p>None of the Republicans&#8217; priorities have gotten any traction, he said: Tort reform, equalizing the tax code, reducing the proposed cuts to Medicare spending, and scrapping the proposed &#8220;public option.&#8221;</p>
<p>In fact, he said, only one big-picture Republican issue seems to have gotten the attention of the Democratic majority: creating incentives for wellness, such as cutting insurance costs for people who exercise or don&#8217;t smoke. &#8221;</p>
<p>SECOND, Politifact&#8217;s conclusion:</p>
<p>&#8220;When Obama said the health plan incorporated ideas from Democrats and Republicans, we think he grossly overstated the bipartisanship of the process to date. Both sides claim the other party is to blame for that, an issue that we will not wade into here. However, we note that none of the plans that have graduated from congressional committees have received a single Republican vote. Yes, Congress adopted dozens of the amendments proposed by Republicans, but we couldn&#8217;t find any that dramatically altered the plan. Still, to the extent there were at least some, we give Obama&#8217;s statement a Barely True. &#8221;</p>
<p>NEXT POINT</p>
<p>Arkle,</p>
<p>I really do appreciate your passion.  I do feel that more Americans need to get passionate.  However, I do feel you have let your blind you.  I&#8217;m sure that the when the Neo-Cons drank the Bush Kool-Aid that drove you nuts.  (It did me as well)</p>
<p>However in doing so, you have become what you most despised.  Someone who is so rigid in their views that they can&#8217;t see the whole picture.  You are a Neo-Lib.  I will admit there is a lot to bash within the right wing, but also within the left wing.  However, you don&#8217;t see that.</p>
<p>I will give you one piece of advice which I doubt you will follow.   Study the history of banking&#8230;   </p>
<p>FINALLY,</p>
<p>With support of the owner of Farpoint Forums, I banned you from posting in the Fence Threads there.  I told you in my last comment to you that you were banned from here as well.  Going on record&#8230;   More comments from you here will be deleted.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: lambo</title>
		<link>http://www.aviewfromthefence.com/2010/07/24/webs-being-weaved/comment-page-1/#comment-231</link>
		<dc:creator>lambo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 10:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aviewfromthefence.com/2010/07/24/webs-being-weaved/#comment-231</guid>
		<description>Bump</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bump</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brian Webber</title>
		<link>http://www.aviewfromthefence.com/2010/07/24/webs-being-weaved/comment-page-1/#comment-230</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Webber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 04:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aviewfromthefence.com/2010/07/24/webs-being-weaved/#comment-230</guid>
		<description>&quot;Also,  why hasn’t the NAACP condemn the actions of the Black Panthers in Philadelphia back on election day of 2008? Or how the Obama Administration is handling the case?&quot;

It was the Bush DOJ that dropped the case, and there were only like, two or three of them, in a district that was going to go to Obama anyway. In other words, it&#039;s a non-controversy.

&quot;2) Who edited the speech?  The bloggers or the “person” who gave them the video?&quot;

Occam&#039;s Razor: Breitbart claims he&#039;d been &quot;sitting on the video,&quot; and &quot;only asked for the relevant parts.&quot; Breitbart eitehr edited it himself, or his friend did.

Also, was it really wise to defend the Tea Party as not racist after one of it&#039;s most prominent leaders got forced out for his &quot;Letter to President Lincoln?&quot;

This was a Right Wing smear job that Obama, forgetting that bipartisansip is supposed to be a means to an end, not an end unto itself, fell for, just like with ACORN. Not that this will stop the Right from acting like he never listens to Republican ideas; a flat out lie, just look at how many Rs there are next to amendments in the Health Care bill, or the Secretary of Transportation, or Secretary of Defense, or telling supporters in the 2008 campaign not to boo McCain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Also,  why hasn’t the NAACP condemn the actions of the Black Panthers in Philadelphia back on election day of 2008? Or how the Obama Administration is handling the case?&#8221;</p>
<p>It was the Bush DOJ that dropped the case, and there were only like, two or three of them, in a district that was going to go to Obama anyway. In other words, it&#8217;s a non-controversy.</p>
<p>&#8220;2) Who edited the speech?  The bloggers or the “person” who gave them the video?&#8221;</p>
<p>Occam&#8217;s Razor: Breitbart claims he&#8217;d been &#8220;sitting on the video,&#8221; and &#8220;only asked for the relevant parts.&#8221; Breitbart eitehr edited it himself, or his friend did.</p>
<p>Also, was it really wise to defend the Tea Party as not racist after one of it&#8217;s most prominent leaders got forced out for his &#8220;Letter to President Lincoln?&#8221;</p>
<p>This was a Right Wing smear job that Obama, forgetting that bipartisansip is supposed to be a means to an end, not an end unto itself, fell for, just like with ACORN. Not that this will stop the Right from acting like he never listens to Republican ideas; a flat out lie, just look at how many Rs there are next to amendments in the Health Care bill, or the Secretary of Transportation, or Secretary of Defense, or telling supporters in the 2008 campaign not to boo McCain.</p>
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